John Axtell (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:44:39 -0800
You said I got it wrong about the government requiring our submission to their
value system in order to get tax advantages but then you clearly stated that:
Alan Klein wrote: You have it a bit wrong here. Tax-free status is a privilege
bestowed upon certain organizations by the people of the United States,..... In
> certain sense, it is a means of providing public funds for the operation of
> these organizations. .... The people of the
> United States, through their elected representatives, have determined that
> discrimination based on such things as race, gender, etc. is unacceptable.
> The government, therefore, does not give the privilege of tax-free status
> (ie, does not provide public funds) to schools if they practice such
That is exactly my point. They show preference for those that follow their
beliefs, the government is into social engineering pure and simple. I believe
that social engineering to be a direct result of the public educational system
that has warped our sense of the proper role of government.
I just do not think you understand the purpose of the gay political
organization. They have made it plain that they want people to stop supporting
the Boy Scouts simply because the Boy Scouts will not accept gay leaders in
their organization. Why should we not discriminate against those who share a
value system different than ours. I do not wish to have my children associate
with drunkards or druggies why should I be forced to let them associate with
gays just because the gays want to associate with my children?
> You said:
> "I assume that you are not saying that your childres's values systems are
> unacceptable to you, and so I conclude that you are referring to the value
> systems of American Indians, gays, and blacks. Obviously, you are free to
> accept or reject any value system you so choose. Could you specify an
> example or two of a personal or cultural value system that you know that any
> of these groups hold, including your evidence for that knowledge? Without
> such specificity, I have the sense that you are simply speaking from
> personal prejudice and bigotry.
I am not sure where you are going with this or the importance of it. I speak
totally from personal prejudice and bigotry as do you.
The point I am asking help from this group about is the value systems
specifically related to the educational paradigm of the Suds model. No one has
really addressed that except one person said she did not believe cultural
values had any impact, an opinion which my experience requires me to simply
I was raised with blacks and they are simply different, I was raised with
Italians and they are simply different, I worked as a personnel manager on an
Indian reservation, one of only two whites on the entire staff, (by the way
they liked me and I liked them, went to their dinners and funerals and I had an
excellent, all Indian staff !!!)
I also worked in International Personnel responsible for top executives in 23
countries and the executives came from about 15 different cultures and I was
responsible for finding them an appropriate educational institution for their
children in each of those countries. I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT WHEN I SAY
THERE ARE CULTURAL DIFFERENCES THAT IMPACT EDUCATION. I just have not figured
out how to implement the values that seem to be the foundation of a Suds school
in a manner that would be beneficial to a group of students from many different
cultures While one Indian tribe might operate in a "democratic" system the
other may be totally dictatorial with the elders holding all the power and the
children and young couples totally subservient to the elders. I am not sure
that such a culture would welcome the values of a Suds school. However I am not
yet willing to concede that a Suds school has nothing of value to offer to a
society which does not value individual rights.
Alan, you make the point that we have the right to associate with those we wish
in our own homes but not in a public building like a Suds school. Why is that?
Why should I not be able to use a room for a specific period of time to meet
with only those I wish to meet with. If I am attending a Suds school and a
subgroup of white Christians choose to schedule a room for a group meeting
certainly they should have the right of associating with whom they wish at the
Suds school for whatever creative purposes they wish.
Does attending a Suds school mean that I have given up the right of association
and must submit to some rules the JC has created that says I have to accept
association with anyone who wants to associate with me? If I start a learning
experience and some other students wish to associate with me and I say yes but
another students wishes to associate with me can I not say no based on my
prejudices and bigotry?
I am trying to get the answers to two questions:
1. does anyone have any experience with the Suds model working with groups of
students of a culture other than WASPs ?
2. does the Suds model really allow freedom of association and allow conflict
or do the rules imposed by the model require students to associate with anyone
who wishes to wishes to interact with the student ?
Specific answers to these questions would be most helpful.
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.0b3 on Thu Mar 29 2001 - 11:13:57 EST